Curse

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 08, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sph0nz

Yeah, it is from GWProphecies. If you can't see that the game has completely shifted away from it, then you're just ignorant of it.

No, no, that's exactly my point. When GW was first released that was the main selling point and or unique feature to the game, obviously as time goes on things change. Nor do I see EOTN tooting skill>time. EOTN was clearly made as a last expansion in the Guild Wars series, filled with grind and titles introduced for everything, such things were put in to keep people around longer until GW2.
For many I think are taking the whole skill over time thing way out of context anyways. The game still incorporates skill over time fairly well to a degree, eotn grind is the exception. Even then, I can't remember having to level certain titles in order to progress through the game, all that comes to mind is sunspear, and the other one you mentioned I think was an attempt to get PVE'ers into some form of PVP and or promote the whole you are part of a "faction".

Tyla · Jun 08, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by munky

you have a batter idea, that works for both partys? lets hear it cuz so far all you'v done is say "lets get rid of norn blessings and you know forget the people who already put tons of time into it", yes i know you have rank 10 norn I did read the thread, but really what dose that mean?

You're probably going to be grinding titles out anyway if you're grinding Ursan out, so you still get some gain out of it.

sph0nz · Jun 08, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

No, no, that's exactly my point. When GW was first released that was the main selling point and or unique feature to the game, obviously as time goes on things change. Nor do I see EOTN tooting skill>time. EOTN was clearly made as a last expansion in the Guild Wars series, filled with grind and titles introduced for everything, such things were put in to keep people around longer until GW2.
For many I think are taking the whole skill over time thing way out of context anyways. The game still incorporates skill over time fairly well to a degree, eotn grind is the exception. Even then, I can't remember having to level certain titles in order to progress through the game, all that comes to mind is sunspear, and the other one you mentioned I think was an attempt to get PVE'ers into some form of PVP and or promote the whole you are part of a "faction".

Fair enough; those quest examples are not big problems, in my opinion. However, they are contradicting the original premise of the game, which is the point. Otherwise, it is the community that is imposing title requirements, which don't display a level of skill at all.

Class requirements are a bit more understandable. After all, not all classes share the same skills at the same efficiency. I however, would take any class into my PvE group; as I said before, the community discriminates against classes out of ignorance.

munky · Jun 08, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by sph0nz

I lol'd. If this is some sort of personal attack (because I love philosophy), then good luck.

i hope no one is takeing any of this as a personal attack... (and i am the one that cannot accept criticism?) but really its just an internet forum, about a video game so no drama plz

after reading your comment about Class requirements I can somewhat agree with you. if the community took any class into any group (i understand you can't do that for all groups), then no, we woulden't need skills like the norn blessings that have made Class requirements something not seen in elite pve areas. but then the problem is... not everyone is so open to all classes.

sph0nz · Jun 08, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by munky

i hope no one is takeing any of this as a personal attack... (and i am the one that cannot accept criticism?) but really its just an internet forum, about a video game so no drama plz

Okay. So then I'm guessing your point was "Let's discuss essentially meaningless things that will never happen because this is Sardelac, which generally happens to be full of terrible ideas"? If so, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by munky

after reading your comment about Class requirements I can somewhat agree with you. if the community took any class into any group (i understand you can't do that for all groups), then no, we woulden't need skills like the norn blessings that have made Class requirements something not seen in elite pve areas. but then the problem is... not everyone is so open to all classes.

Unfortunately. After all, if PvE was super easy, then why would there be class discrimination in the first place?

Ignorance, I suppose.

Skye Marin · Jun 08, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

PuG discrimination will always exist. If Ursan is removed, the next most powerful builds will take their place, with the downside that you'd have to play a specific role in a specific profession to get a spot.

It's really frustrating to get a group together for a HM mission, and fail.

Folks calling for Rank 8/7 don't want to fail, and know they probably won't with that team setup. I know I've failed tons of times in HM with Hero/Hench, and it's frustrating, and just makes me not want to attempt it anymore.

Why would you prefer to spend 2.5 hours on a mission with the risk of failure when you can use what is known to work and beat it in half the time with half the risk?

No matter what, you can't implement your plan without taking away something from a portion of the player base that they have invested a large amount of time getting. That means there is no way that it would ever be implemented.

Abedeus · Jun 08, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

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downside that you'd have to play a specific role in a specific profession to get a spot.

Yeah, you would have to be good to play a role. ;d

MagmaRed · Jun 08, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Why would you prefer to spend 2.5 hours on a mission with the risk of failure when you can use what is known to work and beat it in half the time with half the risk?

Because even if you fail (which doesn't have to happen), you actually enjoy playing the build you made. Personally, I don't enjoy anything about Ursan. You just press 3 buttons repeatedly, regardless as to what your enemy is doing and what hexes/conditions are on you.... and you still succeed.

I actually enjoy a build that requires me to monitor my enemy, use the appropriate skill at the appropriate time, and work with a team that coordinates its efforts. PUGs don't do that often, but Ursan doesn't do it ever. Gotta love guild/alliance teams and hero/hench teams.

sph0nz · Jun 08, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

PuG discrimination will always exist. If Ursan is removed, the next most powerful builds will take their place, with the downside that you'd have to play a specific role in a specific profession to get a spot.

I think you're missing the point.

Let's look at the way Ursan (and the other Norn blessings) function.

[skill]Ursan Blessing[/skill]

Elite Skill. You take on the aspect of the bear. Your Energy returns to maximum and you have -2 Energy degeneration. You have +10...20 armor and +100...200 maximum Health. All Enchantments upon you are removed. Bear attacks replace your skills. You gain Energy every time you take or deal damage. This skill ends when your Energy drops to 0.

I've bolded the problems with this skill; furthermore it can be easily abused with a zealous weapon and a high energy offhand. If this "working as inteded", then I don't know what game bugs are. Additionally, Ursan gives you an additional four (five with Totem of Man) skills, along with the seven others on a skillbar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

It's really frustrating to get a group together for a HM mission, and fail.

Folks calling for Rank 8/7 don't want to fail, and know they probably won't with that team setup. I know I've failed tons of times in HM with Hero/Hench, and it's frustrating, and just makes me not want to attempt it anymore.

Why would you prefer to spend 2.5 hours on a mission with the risk of failure when you can use what is known to work and beat it in half the time with half the risk?

No matter what, you can't implement your plan without taking away something from a portion of the player base that they have invested a large amount of time getting. That means there is no way that it would ever be implemented.

I never said this will be implemented.

So you'd rather have stupid title discrimination in PvE over profession discrimination?

Title discrimination has no good arguments. Titles do not display any level of skill, only of the amount of time invested to max the title. At least profession discrimination has some solid ground.

Education is the only answer to profession discrimination; people are too ignorant to realize that all professions have a use in PvE. It is not my problem that people are ignorant, and title discrimination just enforces ignorance by not accepting anyone under a certain rank. Either way, discrimination will continue to exist because players are stupid.

Further, there is no need to grind titles to obtain skill benefits. In the past, you could play through the entire campaign without being forced to work on any title; this was at a time when titles truely were completely optional. While I don't believe that the few quests ArenaNet has in the game are a big deal, they still force people to attain a certain rank/amount of faction to advance through the game. Even if the intention of these quests was to "give people an incentive to explore other areas" or whatever, it still unintentionally discriminates against all players, and promotes "grinding".

I'm proposing to restore some integrity to the game by unlinking PvE-only skills from titles and completely removing Norn blessings because they are bad for the game. Furthermore, linking PvE only skills to a "PvE only attribute" would lessen the amount of "required" grind, and titles would be back on the "completely optional" list, where they should have been all along.

Clearly, the majority of players have become ignorant; this is bad.

Skye Marin · Jun 08, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Because even if you fail (which doesn't have to happen), you actually enjoy playing the build you made. Personally, I don't enjoy anything about Ursan. You just press 3 buttons repeatedly, regardless as to what your enemy is doing and what hexes/conditions are on you.... and you still succeed.

I actually enjoy a build that requires me to monitor my enemy, use the appropriate skill at the appropriate time, and work with a team that coordinates its efforts. PUGs don't do that often, but Ursan doesn't do it ever. Gotta love guild/alliance teams and hero/hench teams.

I don't think that means nobody is capable of enjoying Ursan. I would enjoy to succeed rather than fail, and I have failed many times.

If you are happy with guild teams and hero/hench, then how does the popular use of Ursan diminish that happiness? You already have a team, so discrimination doesn't apply.

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So you'd rather have stupid title discrimination in PvE over profession discrimination?

I'd rather Anet not waste their time with solutions that don't solve anything.

Quote:

Title discrimination has no good arguments. Titles do not display any level of skill, only of the amount of time invested to max the title. At least profession discrimination has some solid ground.

Education is the only answer to profession discrimination; people are too ignorant to realize that all professions have a use in PvE. It is not my problem that people are ignorant, and title discrimination just enforces ignorance by not accepting anyone under a certain rank. Either way, discrimination will continue to exist because players are stupid.

I'd imagine you're against discrimination because it prevents you from easily forming PuGs. If titles don't show any sign of skill, why do you want to be part of the PuGs that discriminate against you? If they do show skill, why would you expect to be welcomed into that PuG? If they worked for a long time on their grind, aren't they allowed to enjoy the benefits?

Quote:

Further, there is no need to grind titles to obtain skill benefits. In the past, you could play through the entire campaign without being forced to work on any title; this was at a time when titles truely were completely optional. While I don't believe that the few quests ArenaNet has in the game are a big deal, they still force people to attain a certain rank/amount of faction to advance through the game. Even if the intention of these quests was to "give people an incentive to explore other areas" or whatever, it still unintentionally discriminates against all players, and promotes "grinding".

I really don't find anything grindy about finishing the main quest line. If you do, this might not be the game for you.

Quote:

I'm proposing to restore some integrity to the game by unlinking PvE-only skills from titles and completely removing Norn blessings because they are bad for the game. Furthermore, linking PvE only skills to a "PvE only attribute" would lessen the amount of "required" grind, and titles would be back on the "completely optional" list, where they should have been all along.

But...

Quote:

I never said this will be implemented.

I suppose some folks would rather grind on a message board than in the game.

Bowstring Badass · Jun 08, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

The problem within PvE skills is the non balance for them. Mainly [ursan blessing].

sph0nz · Jun 08, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I don't think that means nobody is capable of enjoying Ursan. I would enjoy to succeed rather than fail, and I have failed many times.

If you are happy with guild teams and hero/hench, then how does the popular use of Ursan diminish that happiness? You already have a team, so discrimination doesn't apply.

I'd rather Anet not waste their time with solutions that don't solve anything.

I lol'd. Just because you're avoiding title discrimination does not mean that it does not exist or that it is not a problem. I can tell that you'd rather sacrifice any integrity to the game just to please the ignorant masses simply because it's a good business move. Guess what? It's a bad move in terms of game development. Also, my proposition does solve the issue of title discrimination by putting titles back on the "completely optional" mark, instead of the "semi-required" mark like some of them are now.

Quote:

I'd imagine you're against discrimination because it prevents you from easily forming PuGs. If titles don't show any sign of skill, why do you want to be part of the PuGs that discriminate against you? If they do show skill, why would you expect to be welcomed into that PuG? If they worked for a long time on their grind, aren't they allowed to enjoy the benefits?

Wrong. I avoid the problem by playing with friends/henchmen, but that doesn't mean the problem is solved. It still exists.
lolwut? Last time I checked, there were more benefits to these titles than PvE only skills. Those benefits would stay.

Quote:

I really don't find anything grindy about finishing the main quest line. If you do, this might not be the game for you.

I don't find a problem with doing those quests, but adding obstacles that shouldn't have to be there in the first place is stupid.

Quote:

I suppose some folks would rather grind on a message board than in the game.

For your information, I'm playing the game and on this board at the same time. Also, I only have a little over 200 posts, so I'm not grinding a message board.

kostolomac · Jun 08, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Compared to normal player skills UB is unbalanced ,compared to monster skills , enviromental effects , more hp and energy ursan is ok.
UB is not the problem , stupid pve balancing in general is. I enjoy ursan because there is no pressure like in a balanced team , the general atmosphere is more relaxed making my game experience more enjoyable.
Also , the skill>time is still here , it's in pvp , where it should be.

Sethellington · Jun 08, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

What this boils down to is a "QQ remove Ursan thread" however, you've worded it well. The thing that first got me interested was the skill>time aspect, and it was true for a while. You could rush through the story, skip half of it if you had the skill to run droks etc. but i'm sick of this griding. Titles were added for prestige, now they're required giving the casual gamer a disadvantage, despite that fact that if he/she had the time a title grinder had, they could erform the same job better.

The Time < Skill aspect is no longer true for Guild Wars.

sph0nz · Jun 09, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sethellington

What this boils down to is a "QQ remove Ursan thread" however, you've worded it well. The thing that first got me interested was the skill>time aspect, and it was true for a while. You could rush through the story, skip half of it if you had the skill to run droks etc. but i'm sick of this griding. Titles were added for prestige, now they're required giving the casual gamer a disadvantage, despite that fact that if he/she had the time a title grinder had, they could erform the same job better.

The Time < Skill aspect is no longer true for Guild Wars.

Actually, what it boils down to is that guild wars is no longer about "skill>time", and linking pve-only skills to titles reinforces the idea that "time>skill". Further, title discrimination is now prevalent in PvE thanks to PvE-only skills being linked to title tracks. The Norn blessings are worth mentioning because they also contradict the "skill>time" aspect that was once prevalent in the past.

ogre_jd · Jun 09, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Because even if you fail (which doesn't have to happen), you actually enjoy playing the build you made.

Except, of course, that the odds that you're playing a build (especially in a post-endgame area) you made (ie, thought up yourself) are very, very, very low in this day and age.

BlackSephir · Jun 09, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Compared to normal player skills UB is unbalanced ,compared to monster skills , enviromental effects , more hp and energy ursan is ok.

You forgot to mention that players have brains and having a brain is better than having 6457457 energy and hp.
Though I must admit that every time I read something as "ub is fine coz monsters have monster skills" or "dun liek it dun use it" I actually doubt that players have brains.

Quote:

Also , the skill>time is still here , it's in pvp , where it should be.

And it shouldn't be also in pve because...? Poor casuals and poor bad players would find elite hm missions too hard?

seandom · Jun 09, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by sph0nz

So you'd rather have stupid title discrimination in PvE over profession discrimination?

Yes, I would rather have title discrimination. Grinding out a character and spending the gold to gear it properly is more of a hassle than farming a title in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sph0nz

Education is the only answer to profession discrimination; people are too ignorant to realize that all professions have a use in PvE. It is not my problem that people are ignorant, and title discrimination just enforces ignorance by not accepting anyone under a certain rank. Either way, discrimination will continue to exist because players are stupid.

While it's true that all classes have a use in PvE, its a simple fact that some do it better than others. For example, who needs mesmers to interupt or hex the enemy when you can bring elementalists and kill them. After all, dead enemies can't cast anything. Why bring an assassin who is a soft target and can spike every 20 seconds, when you can bring a warrior that dishes out far better DPS and has more survivability? It's just common sense to bring the better class and build to the group. In the days before PvE skills, it was the "Holy Trinity" of Warriors, Elementalists, and Monks that was the best at farming the elite areas. Now, it's Ursans and HB monks.

It's not that people are ignorant and "uneducated", it's just that people prefer to play the build that provides the best chance of success.

blooQkazoo · Jun 09, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

/signed

uhhhm....yeah... That's all I have to say about that.

So what are we going to do tonight, sph0nz?
-The same thing we do every night, bloo...
...Try to get Ursan NERFED!

ilipol · Jun 09, 2008, 07:51 AM // 07:51

/not signed

These skills are not PvP therefore cannot be used against you therefore do not have an impact on how you play the game.

From the number of threads on this matter I could say that since there are so many people against the use of PvE skills they would have no problem grouping with each other...

The point is no one is honest enough to name his thread "Nerf PvE skills because I don't want other players to have my titles".